Monday, 19 November 2007

Thou Shalt Not ...

This morning our peaceful caffeine fix at the Deli was interupted by a 'discussion' between Father Ann and Holy Peter. Father Ann, always up for a bit of holy mischief, challenged HP with the words: "Does it say in the Bible 'thou shalt not suffer a witch to live'?". Berky started going purple and hissing at Ann "shhhhh ... is one of Deli best customer. You upset".

Ann, not to be put off went gaily on: "A fiver it says thou shalt not suffer a witch to live". HP went pale. He wasn't sure of his ground here, so he started talking about Commandments, the Law, morality, ethics, eyes for eye and teeth for teeth, but FA wasn't to be deflected. She was getting to sound a bit like Paxman. "Yes or No? Does it say Thou shalt .. etc. etc.".

I started placidly dreaming of Nanny Ogg:

And Granny Weatherwax:

I woke up. I was being nudged gently on the shins by Ann's Doc Martins. "Ouch" I screamed. "Are we onto homosexuals and Dawkins yet?" No, we weren't. Ann just wanted confirmation about her quote. I said I would find out for her. Afterall, a fiver hangs on it.

'Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live'. Exodus 22 verse 18.

Cough up HP.


Ann said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
B.T.Bear (esq.) said...


Mummy wunce knew sumwun hoo sed that the Bible waz all literol an speshly the creeayshun bit. So she sed, wat abowt dinosaurs? An he sed, well, their bones ar jus put heer to test us. So she sed, wat abowt girarffs? He sed, wat abowt them? Well, she sed, they're not menshund, ar they? If I wer there I'd hav arskt abowt Bears. Oh! An llamas. They're not menshund either. Hey ho!

Ju's little sister said...

Hi Lorenzo!

I've been sick again so sorry for not commenting sooner. I love this post, and most especially the witches!!! When I went home for Armistice Day I bought a book at the airport to read on the plane. In such circumstances I nearly always add to my Terry Pratched collection. This one was 'Making Money.' No Granny or Nanny though, but the Patrician featured a great deal. I think he suffer's witches to live.


Plumpy said...

Scaredy will just have to learn to share! I put up with his picture on Mum's desk-top!

simon said...

yes.. and thats the sad thing about religion...

Anyway I better get brooming ;o)

Martin Stickland said...

WHAT? A new Post? Yippa De Do Dagh!!!

Nice fwoffy cwoofy cups and your discussions sound like a hoot!

lorenzothellama said...

Yes Martin. Ann and I like a large frothy one.

Halfmom, AKA, Susan said...

Ooh - a new post - and such a lovely picture - but without this lovely deli, I'm off to the kichen to make another cup of tea with steaming mild added - my favorite!

As to your post my dear Llama - the horrid weather you have in England (or perhaps the witches) has made you read backwards I think - the word order I wrote is: "I don't actually think you ever have addiction without sin"

What you wrote is 'you ever have sin without addiction' - or were you perhaps asking a question?

I agree with you completely - many individual things can be sin without becoming addicitons. but I don't think you can truly become addicted without sinning -

Perhaps we differ on our definition of sin - mine is "to miss the mark that God has set out for me" - much like missing the bullseye - a clearly set target.

What scripture clearly says is sin, that part is easy to agree on because there are lists - but the things you mention - running, sailing, traveling, these are not mentioned. So, I can see where those would not be a problem for some but would for others.

As to addiction being primarily physical - I would disagree - I think the mental/emotional must overlay and interact with the physical for a true addiction to happen.

Now - about those "insiduous and hidden" - off to Father Anne with you! And do enjoy another of those frothy lovely drinks for me too - whatever they are, they look positively yummy!

Thesaurus Rex said...

I'm glad Christian people are not powerful enough to force me not to suffer witches to live. I've been out with quite a few and found them in the main to be rather erudite and entertaining company.

God said...

Look, Silly Billies. The Bible isn't literal, just literary. The creation bit was close, just massive time scale miscalculations. (I've still got the callouses from those horrid fiddly fjords, and the magma stains NEVER come out of a white shift, not even on a hot wash with pre-soak.)
It is quite a page-turner though once you get to know the main characters. Have you read the sequel yet, The Q'uran. Simply lifechanging! Not enough strong female characters but I just couldn't put it down, unlike that nonsense by Dan Brown.
As for witches, excellent card players! Never gonna get them down to their undies at strip whist.
However, I'm The Boss, Head Honcho, Main Man, Top of the Pile. You can try to off as many as you like, but I'll keep them safe from too much pain and keep sending them back down in a different guise. Twofold! So like I said to old Ad(-dumb) and Evie-babes, "How d'ya like them apples?"

Magdalene said...

Dear God, please can I have my broomstick back now? You said you needed to borrow it last week to sweep a few dead fundamentalists out of your upstairs toilet and you still haven't returned it. Try a simple spell next time. Far more efficient.

Ju's little sister said...

Evidently A+E liked them apples quite a bit!

lorenzothellama said...

I've never been an apple fan actually. If I had been Eve I would have gone for some cherries, a peach or maybe a banana. And I would have made a pet out of that snake, like Simon has with that python thing he calls Monty in his back garden.
I like snakes. Jack always refers to the little Fairtrader as 'poisonous little snake'. Sweet, isn't it. He refers to Wren as Big Fat Sis even though she is petite and beautiful and to the Musician as Tommy Girl, much to his chagrin. We all like a bit of chagrin now and again.

How I ramble on. It must be the tablets.


Raelha said...

There's a wonderful picture in the Gallery here in Oviedo by an Asturian artist, Evaristo Valle - It depicts Eve in stilletoes and a yappy dog at feet, holding up two apples whilst loking suggestively at Adam. Adam himself is pindering eve's apples, while hiding a bushel of them behind his back. I can't find a picture on the internet to show you, but I do have a picture of a bookmark of the painting on my blog somewhere.

Jls, can tell me what Making Money is like once you've read it? I'd heard it wasn't one of his best - although that probably won't stop me from purchasing it.

Anonymous said...

Hi Ann,

If Holy Peter (I assume this is a different Peter to my stepfather - describing him as holy would be like describing my Badger as stylish) had simply said 'yes', what would your follow-up question have been?


lorenzothellama said...

Oh yes Jack. Good question. I guess that the question of homophobia, aboninations, hell, stonings, sacrificing, obeying husbands, not sparing the rod and the eponymous Mr Dawkings would have followed.

I'll nudge her with my Doc Martins to see if I can get a reply.

Wha'da'ya mean, Badger's not stylish. My Badger certainly is, even if your's isn't.

Lorenzo Mum.

God said...

Sorry Magdelene, I broke the handle. Popped into Wilkinsons for a new one but haven't had time to fit it yet. Still busy with my list of places to hide more dinosaur fossils. Also, must get on with that platypus redesign. (note to self; don't invent L.S.D. take some, then design animals)

lorenzothellama said...

Holy Island might be a good place to hide a few fossils.

Tortoiseshell said...

Hi everyone.

This post reminds me about something that happened in chapel earlier this year.

The minister gave £5 to each member of the congregation as a challenge to see who could invest the most (for charity).

I promptly put the lot on the Cheltenham Gold Cup - and lost :-(

Just to note also that I'm back in blogging action - and may be writing on different topics from now on. I've just posted on music/faith.


Ann said...


If HP had said yes, I would have asked him whether or not he agreed, that witches should be killed.

Why do you ask?

backpakker said...

lol ..:) coffee looked yummy

lorenzothellama said...

The more observant of you will notice the first comment has been deleted. I received a writ from some old buffer in Lincoln's Inn telling me that one of my comment's was libelling his client, so unless I wanted to be escorted to the Ducking Pond, strapped into a Ducking Stool and immersed in cold, muddy water of the Macclesfield Canal which is full of gunge and dead cats, I was to remove the offending comment forthwith. HP is NOT, repeat NOT skinny.
Lorenzo the Ashamed and Contrite Llama.

Kiwi Nomad 2006 said...

At 6am in the morning I am not even going to attempt to join in with this erudite discussion.... except to tell god that I am tired of waiting for the "Big One" near my place so could he please move the plate boundary to somewhere else like for instance the middle of England?

Ju's little sister said...

Ohh, yes I second Kiwi's Prayer.

Ju's little sister said...


from the grave of course.


Merisi said...

This is all much too complicated for little me. Let me use my environmentally sound broomstick and I might even show up for Sunday mass with it.

In other, more important news, archeological diggings near Mount Paradise have brought forth a handwritten scroll by a guy named "Adam I" (ring any bells?). Apparently he had an oversupply of apples (some computer glitch at "Ye Olde Eve Apple Inc", if they read the scroll correctly), but no pie recipe in the house, so he produced a funny kind of dough, which would stretch so thin he could read his daily scroll through it. Having had a rather jolly time with all the beating and stretching of the dough, he called it "stroodle". Archeologists are digging deeper, hoping to find documents relating to the famous case Adam I vs. Demel (the Royal and Imperial Patissier and Confectioner in Vienna), which for some unknown circumstance did not make it into the Old Testament. According to old witch tales, it was Demel who stole the Apple strudel recipe from Adam I, and not vice versa.

Enlightenment, when was it supposed to have happened?

With a wink of my broom,
witchedearest yours truly,

Raelha said...

jls, have you come back to haunt Plumpy or to make sure Dean keeps him on his diet?

Ju's little sister said...

Ha ha, well there may yet be some sort of Haitian zombie-magic going on at the moment. I think Plumpy wants cuddles!

You surely must all agree with me though - he IS a fatty. Whoops, I mean Plumpy.

I challenge the Llama to take a closer look at her screen saver. At first glance he may look like a well-shaped and dignified cat, but look at the flap of extra cat just in front of his hind legs... If only I could take him to the gym!

Todays word 'epeepka'

Plumpy said...


I think she's an evil poltergeist.

I disown her.

Look out Llama's and make a room in your bed Scaredy. I'm packing my bags and I'll be arriving on a jet-plane.

PS - does it cost much to fly to Spain for the weekend?

Martin Stickland said...

Hello Lorenzybum, I would love to email you but I am too scarred to with all this talk of whips, oranges and nuts..and blue balls!

What is your email address and I will try to pluck up the courage.

Mine is

Angela said...


Martin Stickland said...

Did you type it right?

Are you drunk?

or try


write on cork and stick it up a pigeon's 'hows ya father' and send him South West.

Magdalene said...

Lorenzo's nearly always drunk, which is great because it means I'm not the only middle aged old sop around these parts. I'm currently polishing off a bottle of Back Beach Ale from my local brewery, and very nice it is too. Hic!

Martin Stickland said...

me no understan wah you on about?

Me no speaky lorenzybumish.

If you have a hotmale does your hubby know about him?

Ted M. Gossard said...


Ted M. Gossard said...

ooops. I put yes down for an entirely different reason but then noticed it followed Martin's statement or question.

Of course my yes is very selective and covers all areas here that can be affirmed while not affirming all the others- like the hot tea stuff when all I want is my coffee.

Ted M. Gossard said...

well, I guess that is coffee in the picture. You Englanders like tea don't you? Coffee must be comin' on.

lorenzothellama said...

Plumpy: I have made a 6ft. space for you at the bottom of my bed. As for Spain for the weekend, well Fairtrader is going there in December for goodness knows how long and I am sure she would put you in her hand baggage for the flight. Just keep still when you are going through the x-ray.

For your return ticket, Easyjet do a very reasonable one, but it may take you to Liverpool instead of Manchester. I would be sure to meet you at Liverpool because it is such a crappy airport, I would worry for your safety amongst all those Scousers!


lorenzothellama said...

JLS: I have looked and looked and looked for Plumpy's 'flap' that once held fat. It's just isn't there! You are lying! He is a little porker, or Jack would say 'a fat bowser'.


Ju's little sister said...

Well love is blind ;-)

PS - Plumpy thinks you're an angel, not a devil like me!

Father Ann said...

L - Looking at the picture of the three Cappuccinos I made at the Deli - I suppose I could have put a bit more effort into Holy Peter's. What do you think? I think his has slightly less foam??

Maalie said...

What scripture clearly says is...

Halfmom, aka, Susan: The scripture also tells us that a bat is a bird and that the whole of the world's biodiversity is derived what could be crammed onto Noah's boat less than 4000 years ago!!! Does it say anything clearly? Is any of it based on evidence?

lorenzothellama said...

Maalie: stop banging on about that bleeding bat!

Ann: I think you could possibly have done better with HP's coffee. You know how he likes to dip his nose in it.


Martin Stickland said...

Goodnight lorenzybum!

Ju's little sister said...

What do you mean Father Ann? We all saw three identical cups of coffee in that photo. Didn't we???


Father Ann said...

J.L.S. - Bless you my child.

Maalie said...

That bat is absolutely fundamental. It says in the bible (in two different places) that a bat is a bird. Even the most ardent evangelist/fundamentalist now agrees that a bat is a mammal.

You only need a single water-tight error to bring the credibility of the whole damned thing crashing down in dust.

So there!

lorenzothellama said...

Bollocks Maalie!!
We weren't talking about bloody bats we were talking about whether it is morally acceptable to suffer a witch to live!!!! We have already established through countless posts and comments that the guy who wrote that he thought that bats were birds, on account of them having wings and flying about and all that, was an ignorant old git who knew nothing of biology. Maybe if he had had the chance to disect a bat he would have found a uterus, put two and two together and thought 'Arrh ... Hmmm .. this bird is a mammal therefore it cannot be a bird. Eureka.' but it was before scalpels were invented.

I suggest you go to confession with Father Ann, who is well known for her wit, kindness, sterness and adroitness with a horse whip, and learn to be more patient with old folk who know nothing about evolution on account that it wasn't around as Darwin hadn't been invented.

So there.


Maalie said...

this bird is a mammal therefore it cannot be a bird. Eureka.' but it was before scalpels were invented.

How eloquently you make my point for me! So how many other "facts" are asserted in the bible which were held to be true "before scalpels were invented"? The bible was written by wise old men (at least, wise in their time) to explain the unexplainable. But now it all can be explained.


lorenzothellama said...

madms to you too.

Just because a few old wise men made a fundamental flaw in their preachin' and a screachin' don't make the whole lot coblers. I suppose you are going to say that they called a spider an insect?


Ju's little sister said...

Science has been wrong in places too Maalie, does that mean science is wrong about everything?

lorenzothellama said...

Well said JLS!
I haven't got anything particular against scientists except that they are smug, self-satisfied and totally in denial about the fact that they could be wrong. Give me artists any time. At least they have a bit of imagination and don't rely on facts for an argument!


ann said...

The point about the bible, is that it is supposed to be the word of God. God should not have needed scalpels to be invented before he knew that bats were mammals.

It is ludicrous to say that 'Gods Word' depended on the prevailing knowledge of the time. He is and was, supposed to be all knowing and all seeing.

To say that the bible is not the word of God is against Christianity. There is no way out of this loop.

You have to make the choice between Christianity or logical debate, you cannot have both. To attempt both simultaniously is a compromise of faith or reason.

So there with knobs on.

Maalie, you may correct my spelling, I couldnt be bothered.

lorenzothellama said...

Look you athiests, I give you all the amunition you need and all you do is rant on about scalpels!

Spiders aren't insects. They are mammels. The mummy spider and the daddy spider love each other very much and they give birth to octuplets. The mummy spider then eats the daddy spider and feeds the baby spider with her eight little breasts, one under each leg.


Maalie said...

>Maalie, does that mean science is wrong about everything?

Ah, but you see, JLS, science is in the public domain, it is open to scrutiny, repetition and peer review. If someone claims a miracle cure, or nuclear fusion in the test tube, or a hoax fossil hominid, the evidence is all there for scrutiny and if not verified independently it falls into disrepute. Many a scientist has ended a career in ignominy.

On the other hand the words of the bible are cast in the eponymous tablets of stone and not available for debate or comparison with evidence.

Magdalene said...

Oy! Quit your pointless bickering you lot. Lorenzo could actually win yesterday's wordimperfect if everybody votes for her.

lorenzothellama said...

The Bible wasn't written on tablets of stone. Only the commandments were. The commandment that said 'thou shalt not commit adultery was only put in because after Moses had carried all those stone tablets down from Mount Sinai, he bloody well couldn't commit adultery even if he tried.
Thanks Magdalene for gathering up support for wordimperfect votes. It's ages since I won one so there will be trouble with a big T if I don't get it this time.
ps Better go and vote for myself!

Halfmom, AKA, Susan said...

My dear Lorenzo - I, a scientist (though not of the same type or years of experience as Maalie), am deeply wounded by, "smug, self-satisfied and totally in denial about the fact that they could be wrong". Sniffle, cough, wipes eyes....

Maalie, have you ever read, "Evidence that demands a verdict"? You might find it interesting.

Plumpy said...

blah blah blah

you humans waste your lives away.

Halfmom, AKA, Susan said...

I thought you might get a laugh out of that one!

Halfmom, AKA, Susan said...

Now that you have over 60 comments, might you please put up a new post???????????????????

Maalie said...

I'm going to name my cuddly penguin from Tierra del Fuego Mohammed and hope that some dishy sheila will want to give me 40 lashes.

lorenzothellama said...

I'm sure that can be arranged you old pervert you!

God said...

Mammal, schmammal!
It's all done with mirrors and grapes.
T'shell; should have come to me for a clue. I've been known as a tipster. Moses asked for a decent accumulator, and he got a bit excited (or pissed, AGAIN) and ended up believing my tips were some kind of instructions to base life on. Thou Shalt Not Kill was a 33-1 outsider. Romped in 3 lengths clear. He could have cleaned up! Still, such is life. Well it is for you mere mortals anyway. Anyway, I'm down to my socks in a tense rummey game here, so must dash.
Toodle-Pip, creations.

TCA said...

Thought you might like This.

Don't you find you wait all week for a benign, Goddess-worshipping, magic-using healer and then three come along at once?


Maalie said...

W: Are you referring to Nigella?

Maalie said...

W: Just read it. Particularly interested by: What did the term mean in its original context, and what shifts in meaning through both language evolution and successive translations have led to its being understood (or misunderstood) as it is today?

This can be applied to virtually everything.